Curse

arcanemacabre · Oct 18, 2007, 09:34 AM // 09:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

The true issue is infinite energy. Nerf Leadership so it doesn't give energy, roll back para's skills to their primary stats. Then energy will be a primary concern on paras, and skills like AR will have a very big drawback in their initial cost.

I agree entirely with what's bolded. I also agree with what GloryFox said here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

Good Grief you could have added Warrior hammer skill called "Deafening Blow" for crying out loud. That ended all shouts within earshot would that be so hard? At least 2 skills per profession to end shouts in some way or another but no you chose to kill the class instead, as usual.

Now, glountz, to the rest of your post - I don't necessarily agree with removing energy gain from leadership. Honestly, the nerf to WY! and GftE! was a great way to go in this regard. Those skill changes I entirely agree with; the Paragon was simply too much of an infinite energy machine with those skills.

GloryFox brings up a great point on adding effects that actually remove shouts and chants. Although, I disagree with additional skills to do this. I'd say go the route of the Mesmer interrupts that now interrupt chants - change some skills, such as the enchant removal ones, to also be able to remove chants/shouts. Other skills could be made to have that effect, as well. In fact, while we're at it, allow some skills to remove weapon spells, too.

This way, skills that people bring anyway (without needing to bring anything special) will be able to combat Paragons directly. The Paragons can return to their original glory, since now they are easily thwarted, and battles become more exciting, since you can't jut throw up a chant/shout and sit on it.

EDIT: Forgot to add the most important part - we must also have the ability to see who is affected by shouts/chants, stance, and weapon spells (other than the weapon graphic). They don't necessarily have to appear on the health bar, per se, but perhaps an icon just below it.

EDIT2: One more thing, current skills that affect shouts/chants, such as Vocal Minority, could have an added effect like:

Vocal Minority: Hex Spell. For 5...17 seconds, target foe and all nearby foes cannot use Shouts or Chants, and gain only half adrenaline.

SotiCoto · Oct 18, 2007, 09:51 AM // 09:51

Can't we just leave paragons alone?

They've had nothing but nerfs since they first came about.

BlackSephir · Oct 18, 2007, 10:11 AM // 10:11

Y'know, there might be a reason behind nerfing paragons. It's not like they're nerfing them randomly or because it's fun.

Arkantos · Oct 18, 2007, 11:11 AM // 11:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

Can't we just leave paragons alone?

They've had nothing but nerfs since they first came about.

And they'll continue to see nerfs until they are balanced.

Racthoh · Oct 18, 2007, 12:34 PM // 12:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

GloryFox brings up a great point on adding effects that actually remove shouts and chants. Although, I disagree with additional skills to do this. I'd say go the route of the Mesmer interrupts that now interrupt chants - change some skills, such as the enchant removal ones, to also be able to remove chants/shouts. Other skills could be made to have that effect, as well. In fact, while we're at it, allow some skills to remove weapon spells, too.

Wouldn't do much against a single paragon or multiple paragons.

Use important shout/chant -> use GftE! to cover it on everyone.

GloryFox · Oct 18, 2007, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

posted by Racthoh
Wouldn't do much against a single paragon or multiple paragons.Use important shout/chant -> use GftE! to cover it on everyone.

Oh? So your saying that a Smite Hex skill such as "Scourge Shouts" would not insta kill a Paragon? How about "Throat Barbs" that deals damage to target foe or nearby foes each time a shout ends on you. How about a passive Nature Ritual called "Whispering Winds" that reduces the range of all shouts to personal while in range? Any of the above mentioned counters would do much vs 1 or many if they had the right idea's to begin with.

Anet had other options when GWEN came out Racthoh other than the route they chose to take with Para's.

Skuld · Oct 18, 2007, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Nothing should be so powerful that you have to rely on extremely narrow skills to counter it. This is not good for the game.

GloryFox · Oct 18, 2007, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Quote:

posted by Skuld
Nothing should be so powerful that you have to rely on extremely narrow skills to counter it. This is not good for the game.

Hex Removal, Enchant Removal, Stance Removal seems to me those counters are rather narrow in scope, why not Shout Removal's or Shout Inhibitors. Heck we even have Counters and Inhibitors to Adrenalin. All of these current in game counters seem rather narrow in their scope and as much as I agree with your priori on principle they already exist in the game for powerful skills.

Lagg · Oct 18, 2007, 04:18 PM // 16:18

As someone mentioned in this thread, Cracked Armor is a nonsensical condition.

Instead, they should have added Deafness. You cannot be the target of Chants, Shouts and Echos.

This would probably cause problems (or used defensively) with the few offensive Shouts out there (such as "Fear Me!"), but it would be an excellent method of countering Shouts other than just Vocal Minority and Well of Silence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

The true issue is infinite energy. Nerf Leadership so it doesn't give energy, roll back para's skills to their primary stats. Then energy will be a primary concern on paras, and skills like AR will have a very big drawback in their initial cost.

QFT x infinity

To reiterate what someone else suggested:

For every rank in Leadership your Shouts and Chants last 2% longer and you gain 4% more adrenaline.

This way they will become Adrenaline machines instead of Energy machines, which balances out nicely with the fact that they can't hit multiple targets with Spears and that many of their Adrenaline skills have recharge times.

Rebalance a few Energy-based Shouts and Chants to either become cheaper or be based of Adrenaline, and there you go.

No more keeping up Refrains forever before and in between battles.

No more spamming cheap Shouts and Chants to gain huge amounts of Energy.

And you could have Sword/Axe/Hammer-wielding P/W with high Leadership who basically forsake the armor penetration of Strength and high Weapon Mastery to gain the innate Adrenaline gain of Leadership.

Can you say synergy?

But I'm sure both the people here and ArenaNet will call me crazy and settle for something oh so elegant and well-though of as: You can only gain Energy three times every 15 seconds. Except on Tuesdays. And on Winter solstice.

unienaule · Oct 18, 2007, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lagg

You can only gain Energy three times every 15 seconds. Except on Tuesdays. And on Winter solstice.

I loled. But seriously, paragon is at the point where obviously nobody knows how to fix it, so I'd say scrap it and start over if there weren't thousands of them in existance already. I think we're stuck with them for now.

SleepyLuxon · Oct 18, 2007, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Im still having fun with my Paragon because the skills are fun even after the nerfs to AR and GFTE.

Sure I was upset about the changes and how weird they are, but you can't give up on a class just because a few skills change. Regardless of comparison with other classes its all about fun and true balance really won't be achieved in PvP (people will always move on to the strongest skills and the most gimmick builds)
So whatever your favorite class is keep playing it and don't give up on it!

ensoriki · Oct 18, 2007, 09:05 PM // 21:05

>.> They should just edit Deadly arts skills slowly instead make it a better support line.

I wasn't doing the whole Perma shadow thing anyways, lag kills timing >.>
Umm Instead I think that...Dancing dagger becomes an offhand to stop entangling asp from triggering *runs*

Racthoh · Oct 18, 2007, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

Oh? So your saying that a Smite Hex skill such as "Scourge Shouts" would not insta kill a Paragon? How about "Throat Barbs" that deals damage to target foe or nearby foes each time a shout ends on you. How about a passive Nature Ritual called "Whispering Winds" that reduces the range of all shouts to personal while in range? Any of the above mentioned counters would do much vs 1 or many if they had the right idea's to begin with.

Anet had other options when GWEN came out Racthoh other than the route they chose to take with Para's.

I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at. There are currently counters, but no one takes them for obvious reasons. You bring enchantment removal because you know you're going to face enchantments, you bring hex removal even though you may not always fight a hex team they might still have a water ele or dom mesmer. You bring stance removal... well, no, you don't bring stance removal. You bring Wild Blow because criticals on a scythe is lethal, or Wild Throw because it can't be blocked, you bring Wild Strike on your assassin as part of an unblockable chain, in addition to it removing stance. Adding more strictly anti-shout skills, with no secondary effect, isn't going to make anyone consider taking them. The only skill currently like this is Well of Silence, offering degen + shout hate. But it's a well.

The game shouldn't be 'y profession owns you if you don't bring x'.

Crom The Pale · Oct 18, 2007, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Paragons and mesmers share the same problem, more them than any other class but all do suffer from it to some extent.

If you make them perfectly balanced in PvP you render them absolutely useless in PvE, conversly if you make them usefull in PvE they are over powered in PvP.

Catch 22....

I see a future where they end up buffing both then locking out several skills from PvP use....

or they simply give up and let them die a slow and quite lonely death.

Simath · Oct 18, 2007, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

Oh? So your saying that a Smite Hex skill such as "Scourge Shouts" would not insta kill a Paragon? How about "Throat Barbs" that deals damage to target foe or nearby foes each time a shout ends on you. How about a passive Nature Ritual called "Whispering Winds" that reduces the range of all shouts to personal while in range? Any of the above mentioned counters would do much vs 1 or many if they had the right idea's to begin with.

Anet had other options when GWEN came out Racthoh other than the route they chose to take with Para's.

I'm curious as to why you are whining about Anet not implementing skills that would decrease the Paragons efficiency when you have very cleary stated that you think the Paragon class is useless now and is not worth playing due to the nerfs they've been dealt.

Why complain about the lack of anti-shout and anti-chant skills when you feel that they class is already rendered useless?

To enforce my own statement refer to this post. Maybe it will jog your memory.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...77&postcount=8

P.S. It's quite rare to see someone get irritated at Anet for there not being enough counters to their class.

Lagg · Oct 18, 2007, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by unienaule

But seriously, paragon is at the point where obviously nobody knows how to fix it, so I'd say scrap it and start over if there weren't thousands of them in existance already. I think we're stuck with them for now.

Yeah, I can't say I disagree with that.

Hindsight is 20/20, of course, but they just shouldn't have added new professions in the first place.

This is extremely thin ice that has been walked over a thousand times before, but the new professions could have been specialists of existing professions instead. I'm most definitely not the only one who thinks this.

The Assassin could have easily been a specialist Mesmer, the Ritualist a specialist Necromancer, the Paragon a specialist Warrior and the Dervish a specialist Monk. And all campaigns could have been level 20 expansions, akin to GWEN.

Would have saved them a lot of time making noob islands and balancing skills of an extra 4 professions with their own primary attributes. It's already hard enough to have the core primary attributes balanced out properly (see Soul Reaping).

Anyway, what's done is done.

I don't think the Paragon is truly broken beyond repair. What it needs is a major overhaul and a fresh vision, something I fear ArenaNet is slowly losing touch with.

I can't really blame them. I'm sure it's hard having to reinvent the game every six months. It's a path I would have avoided, if I had been in charge (which I'm obviously not). But I do admire that they did not take the easy way out and did attempt to radically change the game with every new campaign.

Unfortunately, this choice turned out to be a bit of a mistake. If not commercially, then at least in terms of gameplay and game balance.

I still strongly believe that some lessons will be learned in time for the sequel's release and that Guild Wars 2 will really be the Guild Wars we've all been wanting (to go back to).

MMSDome · Oct 18, 2007, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Instead of bitching about how your build got screwed up by an update why dont you try and make a new one?

PARAGONS ARE NOT BROKEN!

Lagg · Oct 18, 2007, 10:30 PM // 22:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMSDome

Instead of bitching about how your build got screwed up by an update why dont you try and make a new one?

PARAGONS ARE NOT BROKEN!

Actually, that's a very constructive post, no matter how hard you tried to make it look like a flame.

Paragons are not broken, they're just not up to the quality of nearly all other professions, with the best professions being the Core ones (except for the Necromancer's Soul Reaping) followed by the non-Cores ones.

The fact that nearly all Paragons were using Aggressive Refrain (and those two Shouts) before the nerf means that this one build was really that which kept the Paragon of some quality compared to the other professions.

You could say it's a lack of originality from the playerbase, true, but there's also some fault on the developer's part.

We're not asking to unnerf those two or three skills. We're asking for the entire profession to be rebalanced, so that we can have more options than using those skills.

Silly metaphor, but here goes.

Compare the Paragon to a basket of apples (I told you it was going to be silly). All the apples in it are rotten; except for two that look REALLY good.

Of course everyone is going to want those two REALLY good apples. Heck, they will even make you buy the whole basket; even if the rest is rotten.

Now what ArenaNet did, was to make those two REALLY good apples rotten too. Now all the apples are the same: rotten. Sure, there is balance: bad balance.

What we're asking is to make those two REALLY good apples just fine and to have all the rotten apples made just fine as well. This creates balance too: good balance.

It's not rocket science, is it?

MMSDome · Oct 18, 2007, 10:44 PM // 22:44

uhh well ive been ubder-cool and going in hard mode with henchies and heros and have been use AR. The henchy monks seem to be handling the cracked armor just fine, they arent bitching and moaning about it. I mean honestly, all the armor paragons give it doesn't hurt much at all.

Lagg · Oct 18, 2007, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMSDome

uhh well ive been ubder-cool and going in hard mode with henchies and heros and have been use AR. The henchy monks seem to be handling the cracked armor just fine, they arent bitching and moaning about it. I mean honestly, all the armor paragons give it doesn't hurt much at all.

I know, Aggressive Refrain still works.

Which is the whole point. It was a sloppy and ineffective nerf.

Leadership: completely overpowered Energy-wise and needs a nerf (see many suggestions)

Aggressive Refrain: hack job nerf, needs an elegant nerf (see many suggestions)

Almost all other Paragon skills: need a buff

In two words: complete rebalance.